Elk River Teen Treatment Program

Sheff Shares Message of Healing and Hope

Father shares to help others avoid the pitfalls of helping a child with addiction

Author of Beautiful Boy Discusses Healing and Hope

June 15, 2021

Partnership to End Addiction (formerly drugfree.org) is a New York City-based non-profit organization that runs campaigns to prevent teenage drug and alcohol abuse in the United States. It’s popular podcast interview series, Heart of the Matter hosted by Elizabeth Vargas, is a platform for guests to share personal, candid stories about addiction and how it has impacted their lives. New episodes are released every other Tuesday and are available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Google Podcasts.

The November 2, 2020 episode with journalist and author David Sheff is particularly relevant to families who are trying to help a child who is abusing alcohol and/or substances. Sheff is the author of Beautiful Boy, the number one bestselling memoir of the journey through his son’s addiction. The following is a transcript of that interview.

Elizabeth Vargas
Today on heart of the matter, I talk with journalist and author David Sheff. His heartbreaking and inspiring novel beautiful boy, a father's journey through his son's addiction was made into a movie. David's son, Nick became addicted and almost died of the disease. And David began trying to figure out why as a society, we've been so ineffective when it comes to preventing and treating addiction.

Nine out of 10 people with addiction started using drugs or drinking alcohol before they turned 18. And drug overdoses are now the leading cause of death for people under the age of 50. A record 72,000 Americans died of drug addiction in 2017. And that doesn't even include the number of people who died of alcohol use or abuse. David, welcome. It's so great to talk to you. Thank you for your beautiful book called beautiful boy, I want to start by reading something from actually your introduction to the book you wrote, I've strived to honestly include the major events that shaped Nick and our family, the good and the appalling. Much of it makes me cringe. I am aghast at so much of what I did. And equally what I did not do in admitting this. I'm not looking for sympathy or absolution, but instead stating a truth that will be recognized by most parents who have been through this. You wrote that you felt as if you completely failed your son.

David Sheff
I did. Elizabeth Thank you. First of all for for doing this. I'm happy and honored to be talking - and boy, reading that brings a lot of it back. I think what the experiences when any of us our parent, or any, you know, child, brother, sister, husband, whoever it is, when this happens, you know, we're trying to find answers. It is not something we can never be prepared for. It is baffling. It is overwhelming. It is terrifying. And in that process of trying to find answers, I think most of us do what I did, which was to try to find what I did wrong, you know, what did I do wrong? What if I had only done something differently, my son may not have gotten down this road. May not have become addicted. May not have been in those situations that we were in for years - that you know - that he almost died so many times. And I think that, you know, it had to be my fault. I mean, as a parent, that's what our job is, is to protect our kids to help them grow up strong with a sense of self, a sense of confidence. And, you know, this thing was happening to my child, my beloved son, and it was terrifying. I couldn't blame him. I mean, there were times actually I did, I got so angry at him and so depressed and so confused, that I blamed him, but ultimately, you know, it had to be my fault. I think that we live in a culture where that's what we do we blame ourselves, you know, for whatever our kids go through.

Elizabeth Vargas
Nick started using drugs in his teens. Right? How old was he? You know?

David Sheff
Well, I didn't know at the time. But it was horrifying to think back and realize that the first time he got high, the first time he smoked pot, he was only 12 years old.

Elizabeth Vargas
Twelve. Wow. And have you learned by talking to other parents that that is not an extraordinarily young age?

David Sheff
Yeah. Which is horrifying, I think to me and to so many of us. I guess I wasn't naive enough to think that we would go through all the years of, you know, the teenage years, you know, scot free without having to deal with whatever the issue is drugs and other things. I'd use drugs when I was a teenager. But when I found out that Nick had started to smoke pot when he was 12, to drink when he was 13 - it just broke my heart. I mean, I'll never forget when I found out for the first time, I found some marijuana in his backpack later than that. And I went to his teacher, and, you know, to try to get some help and some advice. And the teacher basically said to me, you know, it's unfortunate, but it's not surprising. It's not unusual kids experiment. Nick is really smart. He's, you know, he's curious. You know, there's a whole culture of drug use at school. And there's a sense that it's cool and all that stuff. And Nick is definitely cool and wants to be cool. But instead of asking me the question that I went back and asked myself later, which was what was going on in this child's life at 12 years old, but he also really felt like he needed to get high, but he was getting hired to try to escape from ... what? So yeah, it was.

Elizabeth Vargas
Do you know the answer to that now?

David Sheff
Yeah, I guess I do. And I think it's only after years and years and years of hell and years and years and years of trying to answer the question "What happened?" And it was not only my question, but it was Nick's own question. He didn't understand what happened to him. I mean, at first, he thought it was fun. He found it was about being with other kids, and being cool and all that stuff. But eventually he realized that that's not what was about and only later did we realize that I think Nick was just suffering in so many different ways. He was suffering from trauma he experienced as a child, you know, his mom and I had a terrible divorce. He was suffering from things we didn't know were happening at the time. And nobody told us even though I brought him to "so called" specialist, but Nick had very serious bipolar disorder, he had very serious depression. And for him, like a lot of other kids who start using drugs when they're young, and his drug use escalates, he was trying to get some respite from the pain.

Elizabeth Vargas
You talked about finding the pot in his backpack. Looking back are there, you know, for our parents in the audience, are there signs that you missed? Or, you know, instincts that you felt and ignored? You know, the teacher said, "It's okay, kids do this. They experiment." What were the warning signs that you now if you could go back and do it over again, but you would have paid heed.

David Sheff
The problem is that we aren't educated often times until it's too late. And what I realized is that instead of looking at the outside of Nick - the outside of Nick was fine. I mean, he was doing good in school, he had friends, he seemed to be okay. But when I look back, I realized that he was suffering and he was struggling. And I wrote that off in my mind, because I think parents are pre-wired in some ways for denial, because it's just too scary to look at my son and realize that he was suffering.

Elizabeth Vargas
Your son Nick became addicted to a particularly insidious drug, crystal meth. Um, and you spend a lot of time in your book talking about the effects of that drug on the brain. It sounds like it took him down a spiral really fast. Once he started using this drug.

David Sheff
Yeah, it did. You know, Nick ended up using every drug you can name. Every one, horrifyingly. But when he tried crystal meth, he said that it gave him a feeling that he had been missing his whole life. He said that when he got stoned the first time on marijuana when he started drinking, there was this sort of relief, this absence of anxiety, as if this anxiety was just dissipating in this way that he felt, you know, I didn't know you could feel okay. Meth pushed that over the top to feeling like, "Oh, my God, life is okay. I can survive, I can do great, everything is fine. I'm fine." For other people, the drug can be different, that gives them that ultimate experience, you know, so for some people, it's the opioids It's, uh, you know, pain pills, heroin, whatever, fentanyl. But for Nick, it was, yeah, it was this. It was methamphetamine. And that led to every other drug ultimately. But because of the toxicity of methamphetamine, in particular, his dissent was, as you suggest, it was just horrifying to watch. And the other part of it that was unique to meth, at least it's more extreme with meth, is that because of the toxicity of the brain starts to change very, very quickly, which means the descent is quick. But it also means recovering from the drug, from the chemical, is really, really hard and can take a long, long time, which we learned over the course of many years.

Elizabeth Vargas
He writes in the book about those nights, we probably can't even count them. When you were sleepless with worry, not knowing where he was not knowing what he was doing, not knowing even if he was alive. As a parent myself, I have two teenage boys, I can't fathom what that was like for you.

David Sheff
Yeah, I don't think parents can fathom it unless they've been there. And if they have been there, they know exactly what it's like to be in a place where your child your, you know, beloved son or daughter is somewhere you don't know where they are. And you don't know if you're going to hear from them again, ever, or you don't know if the next time the phone will ring it will be a police officer or emergency room doctor to tell you that your child hasn't made it. You know, the trauma around that - the the horror - it's beyond describing but it's also beyond describing when that sort of trauma lasts for years, year after year after year. So this living - learning to live with that. never really learning to live with it, but having to live with that for years and the debilitation that comes around that theme. I mean, I did my best to try to function otherwise to be a good dad to the other two kids, apparently my other children Daisy and Jasper and good husband, I mean, to work to do all the things. But you know, I was preoccupied for years with the life or death struggle if my son.

Elizabeth Vargas
You wrote in your book: "I even resented Nick because as an addict, at least when high, he had momentary respite from his suffering. There is no similar relief for parents or children or husbands or wives or others who love them."

David Sheff
Yeah. That talks about how bad it gets. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I wanted some escape. I wanted some relief, and it wasn't there. And I would look for anything. I mean, Nick would go into treatment over the course of those years, I was able to finally sometimes to get him into treatment and they would do this enormous wave of hope and relief. And I tried to hold on to that, but it didn't last, it never would last. I mean, it took 10 years for Nick, finally, to get sober, which means that that desperate desire to get some peace, you know, even for a day, to get through a night of sleep, it was, you know, just was chasing that for many, many years. And again, unless you've been there, you don't understand it. And I know now because I've met since our experience, since I've written about our experience I met, I can't even tell you how many people, thousands of people who've been there who've been right where we were, who understand that hell, because they've lived it. And then of course, they're the ones I made who are part of the numbers that you cited earlier, you know, the fact that if we lose 72,000 people in the course of a year to drug overdose, we are losing children, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, whatever it is. So the collateral damage is beyond imagining as well,

Elizabeth Vargas
You got a lot of conflicting advice during the time that you and Nick was going through this - and and you and your entire family, were going through this. Some people were telling you, "you got pull out. Don't have any contact with him." Others were telling you,"Don't let them out of your sight." Talk a little bit about, you know, everybody's telling you something different. You have no idea who to listen to - you have no idea what works, did you end up trying everything? Or what did you do with all that advice?

David Sheff
Yeah, if we have somebody in our family gets sick, we know what to do. We go to the pediatrician, if it's a child, or we go to another doctor. There's a checkup, there is an evaluation. Sometimes they require tests. And there is pretty clear clear direction on how to go forward. But with drug use and addiction, it's, we don't even know where to start. And people told me to kick Nick out of the house. And this is when he was a young teenager. You know, there's this idea about addiction, that you can't help somebody who's using drugs and addicted, and they have to figure it out themselves. They have to hit bottom. You know, I had this kid who was almost dying, and people wanted me to kick him out of the house. And I look back and realize that that is a dangerous message that I was given and that people are given today, all the time. I hear about families all the time. And they're told that over and over and over again. You know, I was told to kick him out, I was told to send them to boot camp - as if some sort of tough love, you know, marching in the desert thing is going to help a child who has mental illnesses, including addiction, in Nick's case, depression and bipolar disorder. I was told to send him to rehab, but there was, I didn't know what rehab was. And in fact, right now, if you look on the internet, for drug rehab, you will find everything from you know, insane, dangerous, crazy, expensive treatments, offered by you know, con artists and charlatans and you know, people who want your money and offer fixes to problems that, you know, that they have no training to fix - to sound good programs that offer treatment by you know, doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists who know what they're doing. But, you know, for us who for those of us who are uneducated, for parents, we don't even know where to start. We don't know how to separate what's out there from something that is reasonable to something that isn't sound treatment to, you know, just stuff that is dangerous. And that is ultimately, as I said, potentially lethal.

So, you know, yeah, it's a confusing mess. And the other part of the problem that we encounter when somebody becomes addicted, somebody we love, or we ourselves become addicted, is that because this is a problem that is characterized by shame and blame and stigma, we don't talk about it very often. And so what happens is that not only are we confused about what to do, but we're alone, and we're trying to navigate this path by ourselves in the dark. Which makes it harder, scarier, more confusing. So we're left on our own to figure something out that we can't figure out - that is just completely overwhelming. And I guess the only thing I can say about the experience of living with this is it finally getting to the point where I couldn't hide it anymore. I decided to write about it. A door opening up to the fact that I wasn't alone, that none of us are alone who are experiencing this. It's so so common, it's common, it's all around us. And once we do open up to that, once we do understand that we aren't alone, at least we can start the beginning process of talking about the problem and try to understand what is going on in our lives, and also getting support.

Elizabeth Vargas
Right, there's a great comfort in knowing that you're not the only person experiencing this. You're not the only family traumatized by this. How many years were you keeping this a secret from the outside world?

David Sheff
Well, many years, as long as I could keep it a secret to tell you the truth, because of the shame. I didn't want - you know we talked about this self-blame. I didn't want people to judge Nick. And I didn't want people to judge me, you know, this idea that "if your son is a drug addict, you must be a terrible father." You know, "what did you do wrong?" And so I kept it a secret for years, and it was hell. We have these other two kids and I would go to the swimming, Daisy and Jasper are a lot younger than Nick - and I still tried to do the best I could as their father. And so we would go to a swim meet and be sitting on the sidelines and all the other parents were cheering the kids on and talking about, you know, their kids who are going off and to which fancy colleges they were going to or what plays they were in. And I was sitting there dying, because I was pretending that everything was okay that, you know, "Go Daisy. Go Jasper." But dying inside, because I didn't know where my son was, I didn't know if the next call I would get would be from someone to tell me that he had died.

Elizabeth Vargas
Well, and not only can you get access to help and advice from other people who have walked this path if you share, but you're setting a tone for your child. If you're feeling ashamed, and like this is a secret and we can't tell anybody. I mean, that's something that the addict also embraces - the person who's suffering the disease of addiction - also embraces.

David Sheff
I mean, if we step back and look at it, we realize that there's this assumption, because drug use doesn't look like a lot of other psychological and physical problems, that it looks like a choice that people - no one is forcing my son to get drugs - to go driving and stealing and whatever to get money, and then driving to some drug dealer. I mean, nobody's forcing him to do that. Until I understood that, that his illness, in a sense, was forcing him to do that. Because he needed drugs in order to, at least his body was telling him that he needed drugs in order to function, in order to survive. So to shun him, to shame him, to judge him, them. It's not like he wasn't feeling bad enough, already, I mean, he was suffering every single day, he was in hell and then to be shunned and to be judged and to be blamed, just made it worse, and it made him isolate more. And it increases drug use. Because how had he learned to deal with pain, whatever form it was, it was drugs. So his drug use escalated and their physical addiction is real. And that's part of it. But then there also is the psychological cycle. You know: Pain. Treat pain with drugs. Drugs take hold, the addiction, the physical addiction, so the craving, I mean, it's one thing after the other after the other, and then you end up feeling worse about yourself. And so how do you treat that? More drugs?

Elizabeth Vargas
Numb it. Escape. You said it took Nick 10 years to get sober and stay sober. And there's, you know, there, I imagine there are probably people hearing that going, "Oh, my God. You know, 10 years." But there is a real myth. I mean, part of the problem as a society is that we think, okay, go to rehab, and now you're cured. You're going to come out 28 days later and you're going to be just fine. And everything go back to the way it was. And that is not the way it is.

David Sheff
No, it's not the way it is. Although, you know, the other important message is that everyone's different. And sometimes a child will go into rehab, and miraculously come out fine. And you know, there's some, it's suggest that maybe the problem wasn't as severe wasn't as complicated as Nick's, there isn't co occurring mental illnesses and things like that. Because 10 years does sound overwhelming. But on the other hand, if you are in the middle of it, if you're in the throes, and if you've been suffering year after year, and you feel hopeless, it is really important to know that, yeah, it can take a long time, because this is a complicated problem. It develops over a long time. So it's not going to resolve very quickly. But there's every reason to be hopeful.

Elizabeth Vargas
I'm in recovery myself. And I've always said to people, that the unicorn in the room is the person who got sober the first time they tried, most people tried and failed and tried and failed and tried and failed, whether in treatment are just on their own, it's, you know, it's very unusual for someone to just put it down the very first time they try it. And it's important, I think that we understand that when it comes to the stigma around the disease of addiction and the treatment. Finding the treatment. And as you said earlier, you Googled - and if you Google, you know, treatment centers, there's zillions of them. And there aren't asterisks by the ones that say, this is a good one. And the rest are junk, which there are many out there that are junk. You in fact have a organization dedicated to helping families find appropriate, solid treatment for their kids.

David Sheff
Yeah, it's so sad that, you know, we talked about all these relapses, we were just describing the fact that yeah, it can take 10 years. And it took 10 years for Nick to get sober and to stay sober. I look back. And I have to ask myself, did it take 10 years, because that's just what it took, that would have taken that no matter what we did, or it's part of the reason that it took 10 years is because so much of the treatment that he got was bad treatment. And I actually think the latter is true. I think that when I look back and realize that sometimes getting Nick into treatment, saved his life, just even if it wasn't good treatment, it got him off the streets, got him clean for a little while. But there were so many opportunities to get him the help that he needed - to get him psychologically tested to figure out what was underlying his drug use. Someone to recognize that he was suffering depression and treating him for his depression. You know, the range of what's out there is is appalling and so many people are taken advantage of. And it can be very expensive. And insurance covers some but not all treatment. And oftentimes it doesn't cover enough, and especially when it continues for years, like we're talking about. So it is a completely broken system and one of my hopes is that things will shift so that we can start to look at addiction, substance use disorders, like we look at other diseases. And so we know that even though other diseases are sometimes hard to treat, we at least have a path forward. We don't end up in the hands of people who are charlatans who are telling us that, you know, if we give them all of our money, they'll return their kids to us at 30 days drug free, and they'll have these perfect lives.

Now, just as there was some progress starting to happen, now we were hit with a pandemic with COVID this last year, and it has made everything worse. Treatment is harder to get. It is a lot of programs that have been helping people either with treatment or with some harm reduction strategies that helps in save lives, people, programs are going away or they just can't get funding. A lot of times treatments for some people involve community groups, groups with peer counseling, things like that. Some of those have moved online, you know, Zoom events. Zoom therapy can help some people but it's not enough for some people. Some people need that connection. There are situations people are using drugs, and now that are more dangerous than ever. The reason I was told by one doctor that the skyrocketing rates of addiction and overdose is because people are using drugs differently because they're socially isolating. First of all, there's a psychological component of that. That relates to depression, isolation, anxiety, whatever it is that comes around that. But also, it's more dangerous for people when they're using drugs alone. Because there's no one to call 911. If somebody does overdose, there's no one to administer Narcan if somebody is alone. So we're in the, it's worse than it's ever been. Of course we have to focus on COVID. I mean, it's killing people every day as well. But we're still losing at least a couple hundred people every day, probably more than that we don't have the exact numbers. So we can't forget about the fact that people are suffering from addiction. Their families are suffering. Treatment is even harder to find.

Elizabeth Vargas
The rates of anxiety and depression with all this pandemic have skyrocketed, the rates of alcohol abuse have skyrocketed. I'm sure the rates of drug abuse have also skyrocketed. People are anxious, people are lonely, they're isolated. And they're self-medicating often to devastating effect. You were talking about how does a family find in this emergency situation - because you know, it's important to remember that usually when you stage an intervention or tell a child or a spouse, a parent - you need to get help. It's an emergent situation. Getting them to agree is often very difficult. And then you need to get them into that treatment, pronto. Like don't give them time to, "Well, never mind. I've rethought this and I don't want to go." So it's always an emergency people are quickly finding something and often picking as you yourself, say you did, treatment centers that aren't good. How do you find a good treatment center?

David Sheff
Well, the first thing you I guess, is to be aware of the fact that we need help to do that, because we aren't qualified. And there is no system that is in place that makes it easy. In other words, again, if we if a child, we suspected a child had another disease, we would go to the doctor, that's the first thing we would do. So what we have to do is recognize the fact that there's a lot of bad stuff out there. A lot of bad advice. But there are options that are the most likely path to helping somebody get better. First of all, get in treatment, and then second of all, get treatment that is good and effective treatment. So instead of just going online, and Googling and finding thousands of lies and false promises, we want to start with somebody who really is reputable who knows this world. And there are places to go. There are some therapists who are trained in addiction medicine, and that's where I would go if it was happening in my family. I wouldn't just make random phone calls. I would find somebody who is either on the website of the American Society of Addiction Medicine, or American Academy of Addiction Psychiatry (AAAP). Somebody who actually knows this world and can give us advice. "My child is smoking marijuana every day. I don't know what to do. Is it okay? Should I let it alone?" Or "I found, you know, needles in my child's bedroom, my child is disappearing? What do I do?"

So we want to get advice from people who know. Part of it is educating ourselves and getting support. And people ask me that all the time what to do, and one of the things I do is I actually send them to the Partnership To End Addiction, because it's one of the resources for families about how to start in this process, how to make decisions. And there are others as well. But one of the, one of the programs that exists that the partnership is involved with, and it also is available elsewhere as well is called CRAFT: Community Reinforcement and Family Training. It's easy to find on the Partnership's website. But it's a way to help families, figure out where they are, what's going on, recognize a problem, and then what to do about it. And it's for two things. One of them is to help figure out what to do about somebody who's a loved one who's in trouble. And second of all, to how to help ourselves and to get support. So once we're in that world where we're talking about people who actually know addiction, know about Addiction Medicine know about substance use disorders, then at least we're on the right path. Because then if we can get an if we can get a qualified professional to help us figure out where we are, perhaps to do an evaluation of somebody who does have an early stages of a drug problem. And then to get advice about what to do. Is therapy appropriate to somebody need to be in an outpatient treatment program? How do we find one? We need help? Is the problem so severe that someone immediately has to get into in residential treatment program? We can't make those decisions ourselves. And we have to rely on people who are trying to do that.

Elizabeth Vargas
Right. People, like as you said, the Partnership to End Addiction, we will help you at a time when it's sometimes overwhelming and difficult to figure out just the next right thing to do. Before we go, I just wanted to read one more thing from your article with the New York Times Magazine. You wrote "Through Nick's drug addiction, I learned that parents can bear almost anything. Every time we reach a point where we feel as if we can't bear anymore, we do. Things that descended in a way that I never could have imagined and I shocked myself with my ability to rationalize and tolerate things that were once unthinkable."

David Sheff
Yeah, I guess the point is, that it is really, really, really hard. And no pretending that it isn't, and no shortcuts. And I think that we need to remind ourselves of that. So then we realize that no, we're not going crazy. It's okay that I'm feeling frustrated. It's a failing. Okay I feel like I want to give up, because it is hard, and it is terrifying. But the other part of that message is that we want to give up when we feel like it's hopeless. But we don't have to give in, we shouldn't give up. I go back to that message that I was given when I was in the middle of this where many people told me to stand back and to let my son deal with this himself. You know, people can't help somebody who's addicted to drugs. They have to figure it out themselves. They have to hit bottom. They have to sort of be so desperate to get well. And it's just wrong. This is a disease that - is it's a terrible disease, and it's a potentially fatal disease. We don't give up on people who are sick, we want to do everything we can to get them help. Again, it's not easy. It's terrifying. It's debilitating. So in addition to trying to do what we can to figure out how to best help someone that we love, we also have to remember that we have to take care of ourselves. You know, if we don't, we're not going to be good for anybody. And so that involves, for me, it involve going to support groups, Al anon meetings, group therapy, family therapy, and my own therapy. And I don't think I would have made it for if not for that our family worked on this together. It was debilitating for our family, but we got support together.

And the good news, I guess the hopeful piece of this is that, you know, you would never want to go through this, I would never want to go through what we went through, I would never want my son to suffer the pain that he endured for all those years. But when you get through it, life changes in ways that are beyond describing. I mean, we are closer than we've ever been. All of us in our family, you know, and we don't ever take each other for granted. We are grateful to our worlds. When you've been through something again, you know, this is a cliche, there's so many cliches around this and they happen to be cliches because they're true, which is "That that doesn't kill you makes you stronger." And sometimes I realize that that's not true, sometimes what it traumatizes you more and more and more. But the other part is true as well, which is that we are more resilient. You know, yesterday, my son Jasper is now in Los Angeles, but the other two kids Nick and Daisy, are both living near me right now. In the middle of the pandemic, everything sort of shifted and the three of the three of us were out yesterday, surfing together, and I was looking at my kids out there together, you know, who are dear friends, you know, and Jasper's here he would have been out there surfing as well. So Daisy, Nick, Jasper, they go to movies together, they hang out together. Nobody can the movies right now. So they watch TV together, whatever it is. And it's stuff that was unimaginable. I mean, Nick just turned 38. And it wasn't that long ago where I couldn't imagine him turning 21. So, you know, there is a gift that comes through this as well. And we talk a lot about the people who are dying, and we talk a lot about the people who are addicted and the suffering. But it's important also that we remember and talk about the people who are in recovery and the families who have lives and relationships that they never thought were possible.

Elizabeth Vargas
David Sheff, thank you so much for breaking the stigma and telling your story. Breaking the silence that surrounds this disease for so many people, and for starting your Beautiful Boy Fund to help people find good help in times of crisis.

David Sheff
Well, thank you, Elizabeth. It's been great, Great talking to you.

Elizabeth Vargas
You can find this podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and on our website and drugfree.org/podcast. And if you want to learn more about David Sheff and the Beautiful Boy Fund visit https://www.beautifulboyfund.org. As a reminder, if you need help with a loved one who is struggling with substance use, you can text 55753 or visit drugfree.org.